Stepping Into Greatness

Dr. Lisa Orbé-Austin is a licensed psychologist, executive coach, organizational consultant and co-founder of Dynamic Transitions Psychological Consulting, who specializes in leadership development, career advancement, and the psychology of high achievement..

In this episode of Creative & Resilient Voices, we discuss how her own personal struggles with imposter syndrome manifested as her focused work in helping professionals overcome imposter syndrome and perfectionism and ultimately stepping into their own greatness.

This powerful conversation touches on:

·      How to challenge the narrative of imposter syndrome and perfectionism

·      Recognizing when you are stuck in a job

·      Knowing that “good enough is good enough”

·      Appreciating the lessons to be found in failure

·      And much more

Lisa is also the co-author, along with her husband and business partner, Richard Orbé-Austin of the bestselling book Own Your Greatness: Overcome Impostor Syndrome, Beat Self-Doubt, and Succeed in Life  and Your Unstoppable Greatness: Break Free from Imposter Syndrome, Cultivate your Agency and Achieve Your Ultimate Career Goals; and the more recently, Your Child’s Greatness: A Parent’s Guide to Raising Children without Imposter Syndrome.

Through her writing, speaking, and coaching, she helps people move beyond self-doubt and perfectionism so they can lead with clarity, confidence, and purpose.

If this episode resonates with you let me know. Send me an email at Kenya@Kenyanyotalee.com

About Dr. Kenya Nyota Lee
Dr. Kenya Nyota Lee is a storyteller, leader, and strategist whose work explores creativity, resilience, leadership, and the deeply human process of becoming. Through essays, conversations, and community gatherings, she creates spaces where women can reflect on their journeys, recognize themselves in one another’s stories, and step forward with greater clarity and courage.

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Connect on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/kenyanyotalee

or send an email to kenya@kenyanyotalee.com

or visit www.kenyanyotalee.com

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Your story matters. Your creativity in all its forms is sacred. Your resilience is your superpower.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to Creative, where soul storytelling, spoiled strategy. I'm your host, Dr. Kenya Yoda Lee. In this episode, we explore what it means to live, and create with intention. The product, the collection, and stories of coming. Because our lives are static. We're always unfolding. And in that unfolding, we discover our creative nature. Hello and welcome to another episode of Creative and Resilient Voices. Today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Lisa Orbe Austin to the podcast. Dr. Orbe Austin is a licensed psychologist, executive coach, and organizational consultant who specializes in leadership development, career advancement, and the psychology of high achievement. She's widely known for her work on imposter syndrome and perfectionism, particularly among high-achieving professionals who are navigating their complex and leadership spaces. So Lisa is also the co-founder of Dynamic Transition Psychological Consulting, where she works with executives, entrepreneurs, and organizations to help leaders step more fully into their voice, their authority, and their impact. And she's also the author of the best-selling book, On Your Greatness, which has helped thousands upon thousands of professionals to overcome their imposter syndrome. So welcome, Lisa. May I call you Lisa? Yes, of course you may, Kenya.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Thank you. So I wanted to stop, start off with asking you. So you're an expert in imposter syndrome. So what drew you to that kind of research?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, I think, uh, well, I don't think I know, um, which is that my own experience with imposter syndrome was what drove me to kind of understand more about it. It wasn't what I studied when I was in my doc program, um, but after my doc program, after my doctoral program, I sort of realized that I was dealing with it. And I realized it because of a bunch of incidents that had occurred in workplaces, in my workplaces, where I kept being drawn to the same kind of boss, even though I kind of thought they were different and they'd always be the same. Like I kind of took a lot of um like abuse from them and would have a hard time leaving jobs. I, you know, would get stuck oftentimes. I often felt not adequate, and the bosses would play on that and make me feel like I wasn't adequate and costly to work harder to improve my adequate my adequacy. And so after leaving my last job, my last full-time job, um, before starting my own practice, that was the particular incident that drove my interest in imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

So you mentioned something very interesting. You said that there were times that you um you got stuck. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I'm sure there are others who have experienced that.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah. I mean, I can I felt stuck a lot in my career and felt like I left too late in a lot of circumstances. Um, when it was so bad that I I had to leave, there was no other alternative. And that was um what I was trying to stop doing was like feeling like it was so terrible, then I had to leave. And so in my last job, the one that I talk about a lot in my TED talk and um other places, um it had been a particular incident that had happened. So as a result of like being in this workplace for it wasn't even a year, but I ended up finding out that um my my coworker who was doing the same exact job that I I was was making like 50% more than I was. I ended up fighting finding out that even though she was she was working on less less programs than I was, um, she was making more. And then I, you know, also experienced a lot of like verbal abuse from my boss. Like he would yell at me. You know, I was teaching faculty how to teach. Um, that was generally my job. Um, and so in public faculty meetings, when you're an administrator, you're often seen as less than faculty. And part of, you know, working on these programs was being able to hold on to authority and and and be an equal in those rooms. And yet he was constantly making me feel deauthorized. You know, he'd yell at me about coffee being hot. It was really terrible. Um, I mean and demeaning in front of them and in front of people I was gonna have to work with and help. Um, I was getting demeaned pretty regularly. And it was really painful. And I was working a ton, and I was feeling like um I kept having to work harder because he was never happy. Um I just was feeling really down and depressed. And it was, I was in a senior staff meeting with all women. There was all women working in this office besides him. And somebody was playing music, they were playing music in the background in his office. And somebody asked, What is that music that's playing in the background? And he said, It's music to sue the savage breast. And like in that one moment, it felt like a culmination of all of the times that I had been, had had these toxic kinds of bosses. And it made me realize that he knew what he was doing. Like, even in that statement to call to, you know, to sue the savage breast. There's all women in the room, and he's calling us a bunch of savages. And and we're in a senior staff meeting, and he has to soothe us in order for us to, I don't know, behave. Um, so it just dawned on me. He knew exactly what he was doing, and I was acting like it was me, like I was causing him to be mad at me. Um, and in that one fell swoop, I just called, I went back to my office after the meeting. I called my husband, Richard, and I said, I want to quit this job. And, you know, I had been talking about it for months and months and months and months. And Richard was like, please quit, you know, like do what you gotta do, quit. And so, like that is what then started the journey. Um, and quitting was harm. Like it wasn't an easy thing. It was what I was always afraid of, and why I was often stuck with these terrible bosses is because I was afraid they would try to get retribution. And in this particular case, he did, you know, he threatened, he threatened me, said I'd never work in education again. Uh so he threatened my livelihood. He, you know, kind of yelled at me about like I, you know, he I was working on a grant, so the money was encumbered for my salary, means he couldn't spend it anywhere else. And so he's mad about that. And, you know, at one point he cried and begged me to stay. It was the most disturbing and proof, like it was the most disturbing yet proving my point around why I had to leave moment that I probably have ever had. And so I think that's that is what I mean by stock, is stuck as in a job that you don't like, that's not helping you, you're not growing, but you can't leave it, you know, or you feel like you can't leave it.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

So once you were out of that space, how did you transition? How did you gain composure, calm, and to the point that you were then able to make that pivot?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Um, it wasn't calm at first. Uh I went home and literally had a panic attack. I was like walking around in a gigantic circle in my living room, just like panicking about my whole, I had messed up my whole entire future in this one fell swoop. Um, and I remember talking to Richard on the phone. Um, and he said to me, you know, work on the practice, work on your license. You haven't, you know, gotten your license yet. You haven't done the things you've wanted to do. So why don't you go start the practice? And doing that was focusing on on it was a dream, it had been a dream of mine, and then I'd lost that dream, thinking I was just gonna work for others my whole life. And it has still been Richard's dream. So I worked on putting this together, um, thinking it was gonna, I was gonna put it together for him. Um, this is his dream. And in essence, I put it together for myself, unknowingly, um, and him. But like this idea that I could be back in my dreams, I could be back in my hopes, I could feel like I had the capability to run my own thing. Um, in building the practice, it made me feel like I could do this thing. Um, and then I ended up getting a job. I needed a job um, you know, part-time um in in the same in the same university system in which he told me I'd never work again. And what was really lovely, I think, about it was that I was in this place where I felt like I had to tell my truth. Like so, if you if you found it bizarre or didn't want to work with someone who had, you know, just left a really toxic boss in like a very immediate way, I I didn't want to work with you anymore either. So I was able to tell them because they were, they knew of where I was before. They asked me what had happened, and I honestly said what had happened. And um, they were incredibly empathic and you know, told me that you know, this is not gonna be that kind of place. And it was it was very freeing because I I felt a lot of shame for what I had gone through, for how long I had gone through it. There were several faculty members who were like begging me to leave because they could see how unhappy I was, and I felt embarrassed by that because I felt like I had no agency. And so the agency of building my own thing was what kind of I think broke me out of this idea that you know I didn't have choices or I couldn't, I couldn't have interest to over my own career in life.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

But you said something very powerful because on this podcast I talked to a lot of women who at some point just decided that they really needed to step out and do their own thing to pursue their their passion. And that magic word you use was agency. Um, so can you talk a little bit about how women can really step into their own, their own greatness? Yeah, yeah. And and and um and be able to capture that agency and that power.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah, it's funny because you know, in hearing my story, you can hear that I didn't like I wasn't doing this for myself. I wasn't doing this because I thought I have this great idea and I'm gonna, I did it for someone else. And, you know, it is interesting the kinds of paths people are on and why they do certain things. I think sometimes when you're, you know, in this place of not believing in yourself, either either you're doing it without the full belief and hoping the belief comes along eventually, or you're kind of doing it for someone else or doing it at the kind of behest or encouragement of someone else. And I think in the beginning that can be really fine, especially if that person is good to you and you're you can trust them and things like that. Um, but I think like, you know, I didn't I didn't think about it like that. I thought about it as, you know, you know, I don't have anything to do, and this is something to do. And Richard wants this really badly, so I'm gonna do it. Um, but I I think along the way is how I tripped into kind of then realizing that I wanted not to have to ever feel beholden to someone else again and to feel like my career rested in their hands. And that's a big thing to trust somebody with. Um, your livelihood, your ability to kind of feed yourself and your family. Like it's a very scary thing. We don't often think about it, but I because I've had to live it, I feel like it's particularly poignant to me. And I I think at the end of all of it, you know, at the end of this, I really clearly did not want a single other person dealing with what I had to deal with. And that's why it became like my mission and purpose to kind of work with these ideas of imposter syndrome and help, you know, women and men who deal with it to kind of really find their ability to kind of own their greatness. You know, I think that that's what drove the passion was that I knew what it felt like to get outside of that.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

So you also talk a lot in in your books about perfectionism and self-doubt. So how how did uh perfectionism show up for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, well, I was always like the like kind of the goody two shoes at work. I was always the one who like if someone didn't want to do something, I did it. And I and I try to do it perfectly, um, excellently. It's how I got many of my jobs, it's how I got promoted in many of my jobs. Um, it was just to kind of be like almost unmatchable, like that in that experience. But it took me, it took a lot of overworking, it took a lot of anxiety, and it took a lot of a toll on me over the time uh that I that I kind of behave like that. And so it one of the things that kind of underlies imposter syndrome is feeling like things need to be perfect in order for you to claim them. And nothing is ever perfect. And so as a result, you don't claim it. And so it becomes really difficult to see the moments in which you have achieved. And, you know, and I'll give you a specific example is like when I finished my doctorate um at Columbia, I it should be a moment of pride, of happiness, of looking at all you've accomplished. And instead, it was full of worry. It was like, oh my God, what if I had a mistake in my dissertation that I sort of just discovered on my way up the stairs to deposit it at Low Library in Columbia? And I had this moment, this dilemma of like, do I fix the mistake and make the thing perfect and miss my graduation because it was the last day to turn it in? Or do I just hand it in imperfectly and just hope no one sees it? And, you know, and I handed it in, but it was terrifying. For years I thought someone was gonna call from Columbia and take my PhD away. And like, you know, I so this idea that even great things, because they're not perfect, you feel trouble even owning them and that they belong to you. You know, I hear all the time from clients like, I don't know if I really deserve this. There were a lot more people that deserve this besides me, and I don't know how I got chosen. Like a lot of kind of like not being able to own the fact that there's a clear reason why you're sitting where you're sitting.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

And where do you you think that that stems from?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Well, um, the way that I think about it is that it stems from childhood. Um, I'm a psychologist, so clearly that's uh sadly the first place I look. Um, because in essence, our parents, our caregivers, the people around us are our templates for like how to behave and how to kind of succeed and how to do things. And oftentimes with imposter syndrome, it's been set up really early that your success and your achievements are primary, of primary importance to your identity. And that oftentimes the bar is set high, but the bar is always there, always climbs higher. And so you never feel like you ever reach a satisfactory point where you can feel like, look what I've accomplished, because there's always something next to accomplish, which is another thing I see in a lot of people in poster syndrome, getting new degrees, certifications, like you know, like tons and tons of like identifiers that signal I'm competent as opposed to trusting the competence that you do have. And so I think it happens very early on. And I think we get stuck in these ideas that you know our success defines us and the way in which we are successful defines us, and that that can be a thing we never feel that it ever gets satisfied unless we deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Um, so I I know that you've you've you've um navigated spaces through academia. Um so I know that you you're familiar with this premise in some academic spaces, whereas sometimes the kind of degree matters. Where you got your degree from, like how many degrees. Like if I, you know, as an adult, I got my master's degree, then I got my doctoral degree. And even after the doctoral degree, you think I was done, but I was like, okay, what what else can I do? Maybe I can get a certificate from Harvard. And there are these studies that talk about women, and particularly women of color, who just keep getting more and more degrees. Like it's when is it uh enough? And so some of that is childhood, but then some of it is also society, yeah, you know, institutions.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Totally, like and all these societies and institutions also do impact the way we think about and our our parents and the people who raise us are are grown up in an institution or you know, have some kind of cultural reference. So it's all intertwined. And I do think, you know, look, I'm not gonna deny for sure that my doctorate doesn't open doors for me or doesn't, and the fact that it's from Columbia doesn't open specific doors for me. No, that's really true. But, you know, like I think that it shouldn't be because I've been to a variety of different, you know, I've worked in academic spaces all over from city colleges to elite institutions, and frankly, I see brilliant people everywhere. Um, I actually don't feel like I saw more brilliant people at Columbia than I did at some of the city places. I did not. And so, like, I don't I understand in my heart of hearts too that it may open doors, but you know, it doesn't make me any better or worse than anybody else. And I think at a certain point, all the certifications and the letters, they start to they start to hurt you in some way because people are like, this is a lot. Um, and so it does sort of raise questions as to why. Um, so I do think it can be helpful to a certain extent, and a certain extent you have to recognize like I'm already there. Like, if something else is not happening for me, I've got to figure out how to make it happen besides another degree or certification or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

So how would you say like these ideas uh of like perfectionism, imposter syndrome, how do they intensify for individuals, particularly when they're thinking about taking that big leap?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah, I mean, I think because big leaps are often messy, you know, they're they're often not necessarily as like smooth. If we're talking about entrepreneurship, they're not as smooth as people hope. You know, like I I love the optimism when I work with entrepreneurs in my practice that like, you know, they're gonna, they're always worried about the floodgates being too much. And having been an entrepreneur, I know that is not what you're gonna experience, but I let them stay in that because I think it's a really important, you know, moment in entrepreneurship, um, is that belief and faith that like it's gonna flood the gates. Um, and I do think that it's it's a struggle to be an entrepreneur, and it isn't necessarily all fun and glory and excitement and doing things on your own. A lot of things are hard and rough, and you gotta learn things. You fall down a lot, and you still have to get up. And so I do think there are a lot of pitfalls, and the perfectionism will never let you be happy with anything in that experience because it won't be perfect. It's very messy, it's very unclean. Um, successes sometimes are unclear how that happened versus why did it happen last year. You know, like it's very confusing, and you have to just like, you know, be able to tolerate the ambiguity and be able to tolerate the uncertainty. And perfectionism does not allow you to do that.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

So it's almost like having to become comfortable with failure.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Yes. Yeah, comfortable with failure, comfortable not being perfect, comfortable making mistakes. You know, um, you know, I think it's really important to that as one of the fundamental things I teach my clients when we work together is that, you know, it learning to appreciate the beauty of the mistake and learning to appreciate the beauty of the failure, um, and seeing the value of the failure. I think that's so important because in essence, with imposter syndrome, when you fail, it feels like revelation that you truly are an imposter, that you're truly a fake. And no, failure just means that this didn't work out, but what can we what can we take from it so it becomes valuable from it? You know, there's always something.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Now, from your perspective, you know, um because again, a lot of this is based in fear, right? How can someone just I guess determine a difference between discernment and fear?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Um, that's a good question. I think, you know, with discernment, it's not driven by anxiety, right? It's driven by trying to figure out like what's happening here and to think through, you know, like, am I making the right decision? Am I making the right choice? I think the issue can become with discernment when it's you're constantly discerning, but you're not making any decisions, you know. And I think that's a problem with discernment because you can you can parse out things like a million different ways. And I think you don't want to overthink it too to kind of then now it becomes anxiety and stress. And and so I do think like that is that is different than kind of being driven by fear. Fear is like you feel like the you know, someone's chasing you and you know, there's nothing you can do right. You just have to keep, you know, and it's sort of like that's the experience of what impostorum feels like. It feels like, you know, being chased by something and that you can't let go of it and something's deeply wrong with you as a result of it, um, but you don't want anyone to know. Um, and so I think that piece of like being drip fear-driven is very different than discernment because discernment is actually understanding you have a right to have a lens around something and then pick and choose, you know, um around that lens, which we don't often feel. We don't feel like we have choices, you know. So how do we break out of that? It's a big million dollar question. Um so my first book is really about like how do we break out of it. And so what I did with the first book on your what we did with the first book on your greatness is um look at the nine uh most um impactful research back steps that are really helpful in moving people from the experience of imposter syndrome. To the experience of being able to own their greatness and have agency. And so it begins with a stage that's really about understanding your imposter syndrome and understanding a variety of facets of it. So people always ask me, like, what's the difference between self-doubt and imposter syndrome? And that's an important thing for someone to begin to work on. Um, is it's not just self-doubt. It is also perfectionism. It's also overvaluing others and undervaluing yourself. It's also the way you deal with like mentors and authority, as if they're they're they're the only voice in the room and that you don't have, you know, you don't have a say or thought about, like you just do what is told to you, you know, to be able to also, you know, not be able to tolerate mistake making or failures, not internalize successes. There's a variety of components that are just more than self-doubt. And I think being able to identify that is really helpful because then you can see all the ways in which it is operating in your life and not just in the self-doubt ways, and in all the ways. And so that becomes really important because one of the first things we do is begin to identify the cycle. So there are two cycles of imposter syndrome. One is like, you know, you get the performance, you have the responsibility, you get the performance anxiety. To manage the performance anxiety, then you either overwork in cycle one or you procrastinate and then overwork in the very end of something. That's another way of coping with it, and then sort of have trouble taking in feedback. So positive feedback is totally blown up blown away, is like, okay, on to the next thing. And negative feedback is harped upon and kind of thought about for long periods of time where you're trying to make sure you never make that mistake ever again. And so we want to be able to identify not only the kind of structure you're working in around your imposter syndrome, but also intervention points for you to kind of change behaviors really directly. And then we work on sort of other things like internal things around like automatic negative thoughts and how to stop them. Work on building kind of a sense of community around yourself that is advocating for for you and not just, you know, not just have one or two people, but have like a what we call a dream team around you that are really purposefully there to help you as you know get through these next steps and don't reinforce your imposter syndrome. We talk about self-care because self-care is very important and very lacking in our lives oftentimes because we're very burnt out most of the time. And that burnout really does, you know, in some ways, never get healed. We can be chronically burnt out. So, really incorporating self-care is a fundamental part of the puzzle. And then also changing the ways you show up, like changing the roles that you take on, changing the ways that you behave in certain circumstances that have been very imposter syndrome-driven, and trying new ways of showing up that don't require you to be overly competent, to be like always working so hard in order to feel visible, to kind of volunteer for all the crap projects, so that in essence people feel like you you're you're chipping in and you're a team player. So, really trying to kind of um find new ways to be in an organization that give you a lot more freedom and less overburdened work, and then also that are about you know being able to step away from a previous identity and recognize you can still be valued as a, you know, in that in that new identity of like I'm valuable in and of myself. I don't need to prove it to you. And then the last piece is really looking at relapse. So we often look at we don't want people to relapse back into it. It's really easy to do that. And so having them be able to understand what a relapse looks like as opposed to a lapse. A lapse is just a slight fall back and then you pick up your skills again that you've learned. And relapse is, you know, you fall back and you're like, it's never gonna be any better than this. I can't, I can't, it's just a thing I'm gonna have forever and I'm not gonna ever do this. And so trying to prevent relapse and really, you know, know that lapse is normal in any developmental process.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

So what is a real-time intervention for someone who's, you know, how how can you catch yourself in that in that moment?

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I mean, I think I think it once you kind of identify how it operates, like when I when I sort of work with my clients and they start to identify and understand it, they often catch themselves and they know that this is what's happening. Sometimes they have trouble doing something different. And so we talk about, you know, try, you know, for example, if you're caught in a cycle around overwork, instead of overworking, and you know that's the cycle for you, instead of overworking, partly what you can do is scope out the project and plan sort of not only how long it's going to take you to do each piece, but also if you need help, if you need a team, if you need other things. So in essence, you don't handle this completely alone and you you get it done in a way that isn't killing yourself. So really thinking through the ways that you've previously done things. And I have a lot of clients who've often said, Well, by the time I teach somebody else, I could have done it all, and blah, blah, blah. And I say that that can be true, but you're also at it's at a cost to you. And then that person never learns how to help you. And so it'll always be the case that'll take more time to teach them. But without them teaching, without teaching them, you never get a chance to get helped ever again. You know, so it's really these tiny behavioral things, but also the way you think about yourself and you think about particular circumstances that matters too.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

I I was chuckling because I literally have heard myself say out loud those exact words, you know, like, why don't you just have so-and-so do it? I said, No, by the time, yes, these exact words, by the time I taught them, I could have done it myself. Yes. And so I find myself doing a lot that I've could have delegated. So it really is taking that time to, you know, to delegate.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

It's almost like self, it's almost like um work self-care, you know, to actually take the time to teach somebody else to be able to handle part of the job that you're passing down.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

You know, and um as you were talking, what I was also thinking about is um, because I literally had this conversation with someone the other day about, and I'm guilty of this as well, almost taking pride in being the person that everyone turns to.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Because, you know, in the past I felt that I had to prove myself. So how do I prove myself? By, you know, being the go-to person, you know, to the point of exhaustion. And that's when I got so burned out, you know, like that was just a charcoal briquette sitting in a chair. That's when I was literally just like, you know what? I can't continue to do this.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

You know. Um, so like a real-time intervention is me learning the power of saying like no very nicely, but you know, I can't take this project on. You know.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yep. And then also sitting with the discomfort of people also dealing with your new found skill or your newfound identity, with a like, what did you just say to me? Like they're they're having their own process around the fact that you never say no, like I now I don't know what to do because I I was counting on you to do this because you're the only one that would take this terrible assignment or whatever. And so it does require some, you know, a bunch of different skill sets to be able to also tolerate the the pushback on the identity change, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Because, you know, as you know, that even with your own experience, you have you're you're battling with with imposter syndrome internally, but then you're also having to battle it externally and dealing with other people's expectations. So, how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Well, it's funny that you say that because in essence we call that the double impact of imposter syndrome. And what we see, you know, I think it can happen to everyone, but we see it happen more to women and people of color and people from marginalized groups, because in essence, they're experiencing imposter syndrome internally. We know what that is, and but they're also experiencing it externally, where people are like, maybe you don't belong, maybe you do need to prove yourself, maybe we're wondering why you're here. And that sort of reinforces the idea that, you know, the imposter syndrome isn't wrong, it's actually correct. And like, you know, this is how I've survived. And so I do think we have to watch also too when people purposefully like push us to kind of prove our competence or prove our worth or never let don't ever want us to hear no, because in essence they're benefiting from the imposter syndrome. They are they don't want you to change it because they got you to work 60 hours and pay for 40. Like, you know, why would they want that to change? You know, like, and so it does sort of like have a natural resistance because people understand they're not going to get as much from you as they once did, nor should they have ever.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

No, exactly. Um, so this is along the same line. So we have this sometimes this bar of excellence. Um, how do we unlearn that?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yes. It's a really good question. Um, it's it's sort of like why we wrote it about like own your greatness and you know, this idea of like that that bar of excellence being sometimes unachievable or like always it goes to the next level all the time. And I think, you know, usually my clients hate this, and most people hate this who struggle with the posture, but we really look at the good enough, like what is good enough. And like many of us have not been told good enough is enough. And if we've been told only straight A's, 99s are, you know, I'm still gonna ask you what question you got wrong and didn't get 100 on it. Like we've been taught that only like only that level of excellence is is worthy. And it's not true. Um, I mean, we can see it today in our government, we can see it in a variety of places where people are not excellent and yet they still hold positions of power. And so I do think it's important to be able to recognize that, you know, especially in certain things, good enough is good enough. And so, and to be able to not get to that place where you're constantly pushing for, you know, this idea that's fairly unattainable, you know, in terms of like perfect excellence and constantly being excellent. And, you know, I think it gives us a large break to also, you know, be proud of things that aren't perfect or proud of things that are someone else wouldn't consider excellent. But I think that's been a really important thing for me in my development is like I always wanted, I was always going for something exciting and impressive. And it was giving me a dopamine hit too, to kind of like, you know, feel like I could tell people, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, time for for a long time in my own, even in my own business, like things were quiet and there wasn't a lot. And it it's you still have to feel like this is still good. And I think that can be really hard to be able to look at something that isn't, you know, braggable and be able to feel good about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Um, I recently had an interview with uh a woman who basically uh took like a height as she decided she just needed a break, you know, a little sabbatical. And that was difficult for her because she'd go into LinkedIn and then and then suffer from LinkedIn envy because she didn't have anything to show. She ran off trying to find little projects that she could post about, you know. So how do we get out of that, that that space, you know?

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah, and I think, you know, especially in our culture, our current culture, the dopamine hits from successes are such the thing, you know, that we, you know, thrive off of. And I think, you know, I think also not seeking the dopamine so much. Like we don't need that hit to be valuable. We don't need that feeling of like, look what I did in order to feel like we're worthy or valuable. And so I think self-worth becomes so important in this, you know, and self-worth is very different from self-esteem. You know, self-worth is the understanding that you are worthy in and of yourself just as you are. And that doesn't require any proof or any kind of like showing. And so I do think it's a bit about like kind of like Nick for your for your the previous person you were talking about is like, okay, you're not posting anything, you know, like you're not gonna post anything and you're gonna sit with that discomfort and what it feels like to not have to, and begin to appreciate the fact that not posting is also giving you something. And that's something to, you know, it's giving you time, it's giving you lacophomo, you know, it's you know, it's all giving you all kinds of things that are valuable that you're missing out on trying to just current constantly impress or show. So I do think it's like um getting away from like what do they call it, uh the hedonic treadmill where it's just like constantly looking for the next thing, you know, because I do think it's so important to not get caught up in that because it can be it can make you make mistakes, like just chasing, chasing, chasing.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

So part of the hesitation that women may have, or individuals for that matter, in stepping out into new spaces, moving on to that next thing, is waiting for permission, you know, uh from the universe or whatever, but they're waiting for someone to someone else to invite them to do something differently. So, so what advice would you give to that individual?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

It's a great question because I think that it's something I commonly see with imposter syndrome is the idea that I will work so hard that eventually someone will tap me and I'll get the next thing. And that's really not how a lot of promotions work. A lot of promotions are not based on effort, they are based on relationships, they're based on contacts, they're based on like all kinds of things that, you know, are not about work. Um, and to me, it's about agency. It's like feeling that if you want something, part of you has to be out there out there to get it, you know, and that it's not about just working hard. And I think it's a hard thing, especially for like people of color and immigrants and you know, been told like put your head down and work and then eventually get tapped. And then a lot of us have realized it's not true. Um, that in essence, you know, people are getting tapped next to you, and you're like, why the heck did they get tapped? They went home yesterday at three, you know, um, because they've been doing other things. They've been schmoozing and politicizing and doing all kinds of other things that you're not seeing. And that's why they're getting tapped. And so it's really understanding the particular game in your workplace. And this is actually what I talk about in the second book, Your Unstoppable Greatness. Your unstoppable greatness is about culture, organizations, it's about sort of systems and imposter syndrome, and really reminding yourself that um every game is like, you know, every workplace is like playing 3D chess. Um, and that it's really important to recognize that there's no straightforward, we're not playing checkers here, it's not straightforward. Um, but you've got to figure out sort of what are the dimensions that lead to promotion here and be honest with yourself, right? And also honest with yourself about whether you want to do those things. Because if you might not want to do them. Um, and if you don't, then it's time to find another organization. But if you are open to doing them, it does not always mean work hard, even though that's what's told to you. It's often told to you, but that's not the that's not the equation you're working with.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Yeah, I don't know about you, but you know, I grew up, and I know a lot of of my colleagues grew up, um, particularly as women of color, being told that you have to work twice as hard.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yes, to get half as much. Yeah. And look, the data's there. It, you know, it is it is true, but I think what is important is that you recognize it's not because you are not valuable. It's because the society is racist, sexist, you know, is is all these isms that, you know, are are holding us down. It's not because we are we are less valuable, but it is, it is true that what will be expected of us, and and it's disgusting. And I think it's so important for especially women and women of color leaders to be able to recognize that this can accidentally get internalized and you can do the same thing to your own people. And you you should not be, you should be very conscious of the fact that these kinds of expectations, like, you know, the black woman's gonna work harder, the black woman's gonna give me what I want, you know, these kinds of ideas can be internalized even by us. And so we want to be very careful that we don't perpetrate it either.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

So what is like one experiment that that someone could try, you know, in this upcoming week to kind of challenge their imposter narrative?

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Um, I think I love that. Um, I think one thing you could try is take one tiny risk, something that you're a little afraid of. It shouldn't be a big risk because you don't want to like, you know, feel like then it was not worth it to try, but some little tiny risk that you wouldn't typically and ordinarily do. And then after you take that risk, like name it, name what the risk is, and I would share it with another person so you're held accountable, and then to take that risk and then to do something afterwards that is rewarding to yourself for taking that risk. Like promise yourself like you know your favorite coffee or like you know, some kind of like little tiny reward, because sometimes the risk doesn't feel rewarding in in that very, very moment, but can be rewarding over time, even if you're just building the habit of stretching outside of your comfort zone. You know, that may not feel it may feel terrible afterwards, but the idea is like you're gonna reward yourself because you know that as a result of doing that, you're breaking out of this idea of like this confinement that you're experiencing around the possibilities of your life.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

So second to last question for you. So for the woman listening today who's sitting quietly uh on a dream, what would you want her to hear today?

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Uh I would want to hear, I would want her to hear something that Richard would tell me um all the time and I didn't understand it at first. It's a very simple statement, but I just couldn't get it like to to digest it, which is when you work as hard for yourself as you do for others, you're going to be unstoppable. And so putting some of the effort you're putting toward other people, put it toward your dream. You know, even if it's just a little bit of something toward that dream, but work toward that dream for yourself and work as hard as you would if you were working for someone else.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

So you've talked an awful lot about this mystery person, Richard, who is is your partner. You want to tell the people who he is? Uh yeah, yeah. Start Googling.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah, Dr. Richard Orbe Austin. Um, he's my husband, my partner, uh, my business partner, literally. Um authors of all three of the books. Um, and I think, you know, my greatest supporter, the person who believed I wasn't an imposter and I wasn't faking it, and that if I could truly be my full self, I would be unstoppable. And so I think you everyone needs someone like that in their life who just believes in you and knows, knows your your unlimited potential and always supports that, even when it even when it feels like there's no reason to support it. So I do think like having someone like that in your life is critical. It could be a friend, it could be a sibling, it could be anybody.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Anybody. I was gonna say that I think the most empowering thing is being able to be in a space where there's shared experience. Um, and uh, you know, I've done like, you know, do my own doctoral research, you know, conversations, focus groups of women who thought they were the only ones experiencing something. And then when we have those conversations and they hear everyone else's story, they realize I'm not in this alone. So the most powerful thing that you can hear is no, you're not crazy. Yeah, exactly. This is a thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah, yes, and that you have community around it in the sense that you're all working not to live, especially with imposterum, you're all working not to live in that zone. But that also it's it's really important to feel like you're not alone because for many years I felt like even though I knew it was I was a social scientist, I knew that it was a concept that had been taught in social psychology for a long time in social science. Um, but I still believed like I must be broken. Like I don't see anyone else around me like being this ridiculous or this stupid or can't live leave their job, or but those were erroneous thoughts because I wasn't sharing with anyone what was happening internally. You know, I was just sort of living it.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

So my last question for you today is what does it mean to be creative and resilient?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

That's a great question about that. I mean, I think that being creative and resilient, at least for me, I'll talk for myself, which is it means to be like able to, you know, allow yourself to dream, to think, to think out of the box, you know, and to be able to deal with the hard times around those, that it's not just all dreams. Sometimes it will be dream and nightmare. Um, and that you have to be able to kind of cope with the nightmare pieces because you know the ultimate goal is something that you really want um and that you really are aspiring to. So I I do think that creatively resilient, like parts of yourself really are about sort of the the out-of-the-box and the ability to hold yourself at the same time, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Lisa, that that is it. Thank you so much for this powerful, impactful conversation. Um, and your your work is it's so important. Um, it's meant a lot to me personally and to others around me. So, you know, continue that. Um, and it's it's so important that people know that even you know, um an expert like yourself has experienced this. You know, it's not it's not an anomaly, but that um you'll also To prove that you can work through it.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah. And I and I feel on the other side of it it's so much better on the other side. That side was so painful and so hard. Um, and it just I'm able to live my dreams on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

And thank you, Kenya, for having me.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Okay, take care. You too. Thank you for joining me for this episode of Creative and Resilient Voices. If this conversation resonated with you, share it with another woman on the edge of her own becoming. And if you'd like to continue the journey, join me on Substack at Creative and Resilient, where we reflect, write, and build community together. Until next time, remember, your story matters, your creativity in all its forms is sacred, and your resilience is your power.